Explore

Welcome back everybody. Thanks for joining us here at the Artist’s Tao with Jenny and Sean Starr. We're having some tea today and we're going to explore our next principle of the Artist's Tao and this principle is to explore. Do not become attached to one single means of expression. Do not trap yourself.

This is also a big one.

I think so.

Do you like again, as I know that you were saying that when you wrote this book back in 06 around then that you were sort of it was sort of a sum of exploring actually, I think on your part. So do you can you do they do they remind you of when you sort of brought them forward? Was there a certain experiences that you were experiencing? Is it a sum of all your experiences?

I think on this particular one it was more about giving myself permission.

You know, I started playing guitar when I was, I think I was 12 when I got my first guitar. And I had already, you know, I'd done paintings of birds, as I mentioned in another episode. And, you know, I had dabbled in a lot of things, because then when I got into working in my dad's shop, you know, that was... you know, all custom paint work and pinstriping and lettering and all these different kinds of things. And I think by the time that I was putting these ideas in place, especially with this idea of exploring, I was giving myself permission to just kind of explore being creative in all these different areas that I've had interest in.

And it kind of goes again of defining yourself, that principle. If you don't define yourself, somebody else is going to, especially in art, I feel. And so for me, it was giving myself permission to, you know, if I want to get involved in a music project, I get involved in a music project and, you know, like writing this book and, you know, some of the other books I published, you know, it was giving myself permission to like explore, expressing myself in all sorts of ways, not just painting or not just, you know, lettering, those kinds of things.

And was that after a time where you felt like perhaps maybe you had kind of given yourself, put yourself in a position where you were just doing one thing or you were just like getting comfortable in something?

Yeah, I think it was just kind of clearing the deck. Like in 2005, when I moved to San Francisco, and had come out of a big life change and gone through a divorce and all these different things and getting off prescription medications, all this different stuff converging at the same time. It was like kind of this regrouping of like... You know, now I've got this opportunity. Now I've got this opportunity to like really explore being creative across the board, not just like, you know, having always done creative work for a living from teenager on, it was like, okay, how far can I and do I want to take this as opposed to like, you know, oh, well, I'm at work, and I've got this sign to paint or this thing to design or whatever, and then I'm gonna go home and that's not what I'm doing with the rest of my time, if that makes sense.

What do you think the, I know you were talking about defining yourself, not only in the previous episode, but just now. So what do you think are some dangers or pitfalls if you get stuck or you become too attached to, you're only this kind of artist or you're only doing this kind of thing.

No dangers other than life is not nearly as fun.

Because if you kind of just unload the baggage and just let yourself be creative in whatever way, you know, hits you. And some of those things you might not even be that good at. But it's way more fun to just jump in and be like, you know, oh, these guys are getting together and they're going to play music. I'll jump in and play some guitar with them. And then, you know, you know, maybe maybe I'll put together this fun little goofy video thing that I've been wanting to do that I have this idea in my head. You know, whatever it is, you know, that's way more fun to me.

Yeah, I would agree. So you're not sitting on the sidelines basically sort of watching everything just kind of go by because maybe one has put themselves in one particular spot.

Like I just do this. I don't do that. Yeah. This or that type of thing. And it's kind of like exercising muscle memory. You know, when you're learning how to paint signs, for instance, you know, you have to develop muscle memory. And so you're repeating brushstrokes over and over and over and over again to infinity.

Um, but something starts to kick in and it's the same thing that I experienced when I learned how to play guitar and, and a lot of other things is, you know, you do this repetition and it's clumsy and it's awkward and it doesn't sound good or it doesn't look good. And then all of a sudden it starts to, it starts to take. And I feel that's the same with, uh, being creative across the board is the more you give yourself that permission to do it and do it in many different ways and areas of your life, not just the thing that you've chosen to do or the thing that has been chosen for you to do by popularity or something. And so you're kind of just going with that thing. If you keep exercising, you know, creative problem solving and creative expression and all these different things, then you kind of end up where that muscle memory of that kicks in at a certain point. And then you just, that's kind of how you're doing everything.

Do you think that it's like listening to your heart more? Like, do you think we become, like, do we become attached because maybe we're too much in our head about thinking like, “shoulding” on ourselves, basically, should do this, I should do that.

Yeah, okay. I see what you're saying. Yeah, I would say that's probably accurate of doing things, developing an instinct for being creative. Yeah, like instead of being a robot, you're doing mechanical. Or overthinking it and stalling yourself out because then you're starting to analyze, well, maybe I should do this, shouldn't do that. Maybe I should do it this way, not that way, as opposed to just kind of, I mean, it doesn't matter.

And that's the most freeing thing a person can get to with art is it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. The details don't matter. If people like it on a large scale or not, doesn't matter. None of it matters. It's you interacting with your ideas and expressions in the world and putting those ideas together in a way that you can share them with other people.

And sometimes they land, sometimes they don't, and that doesn't matter.

Why? Because it's coming from that pure place like we were talking about.

Yeah, if you're doing it right, if you're not attached to the outcome of, wow, this got a lot of popularity, this got a lot of likes, I sold a lot of this thing. If you're not attached to any of that and you're just really solely focused on... creating something for the purpose of being involved in that creative act, then you're creating and it's coming from a real genuine place.

Yeah, I guess we... can hinder ourselves. We're our own worst enemy, I would say.

For sure. And a lot of these in the book, especially revisiting when we had talked about republishing it and revising it and changing it up a little bit, it was really interesting to me to come revisit this all these years later since the first one was released of. These are really synonymous with truisms of living and being. It's not uniquely specific to art of, I mean, even though these things are specific to working as an artist and supporting yourself and an artist and all of that, it's also simultaneously true with just living in general and living a good fulfilling life, I feel.

Yeah, I would agree. I think, you know, thus far it's like, it feels to me like also principles to be present.

Yeah. Yeah. And again, I mean, when you're putting something like this together and you're coming out of like this big life change and, you know, you had put all of these things on hold, that you want to now pursue because your situation's different and your circumstance is different. A lot of this was, in retrospect, like putting a compilation together of conversations I had with other artists, my own thoughts at the time, and kind of giving myself either a roadmap or permission to like, how am I going to do this going forward? Like what... what things are going to be my, you know, along my path, what are gonna be my little guides on these different things. And it's really strange and interesting to look back and see how true so much of it was.

And can you speak to, when you were talking about it, it's like a little bit like... flexing or exercising a muscle, right? The giving yourself permission part. Can you speak a little bit more about that?

Yeah, just like so many things, when you're working on your art form, whatever that primary art form is, that you're really spending lots and lots of hours and giving a lot of thought.

The more that you're doing it and the more you're practicing it, the easier it gets. And that's again, universally true, whether it's a person going to a gym and working out, or it's a person sitting and meditating. Like that's why they, you know, call it practicing meditation is because you're, you know, you're refining that ability to get into that space. And the same is true of, um, your artistic pursuits is, those things get more easeful over time, the more that you're doing them. And it is, it's like exercising a muscle to where, you know, if you go out and try to lift a, you know, 50 pound bag of bird seed and move it around today, that might be difficult. Whereas if you're working your body out and everything, and you come back to do that same thing a month later, that might seem like, you know, you're lifting up nothing, like a loaf of bread. So yeah, the more you do it, the more easeful it becomes.

I was gonna say this reminds me of practice. It's almost like a similar thing. But I was thinking it's kind of not because like when you're talking about giving yourself permission to explore, it's like, it's you're even simply giving yourself permission to explore trying something different.

So it's almost like you have to practice that even.

Yeah. And some people more than others, you know, like depending on your upbringing and you know, whatever programming was instilled in you, like that might be a real struggle for some people of just getting over that of, you know, stay in your lane, stay in your box. You know, you don't need to be messing with these things. If that's the messaging you got growing up, then that would be really hard. I always joke that I was raised feral. So my experience has been a different set of challenges to overcome because of my upbringing, which I'm convinced everyone's got a set of challenges from their upbringing no matter what it is. It's the thing they have to work through. Some parents are overprotective, some parents are underprotective, some parents are completely checked out and not there. It's... whatever your set of influences are that you are given, you're going to have to wrangle with that. Especially when you talk about in art, there's so much of it that comes from like deep down inside expression that there are all these things that wrestling with each other, you know?

Yeah, I don't, I guess really nobody's immune from the itty bitty shitty committee. I'm just gonna say it.

No one here gets out alive.

Yeah, that's for sure. That's for sure. Yeah.

And I think that last little part, the don't trap yourself, is a really, it's a thing that's popped up to me year after year for many years now of, we kind of get in this place where, in this head space where we're, you we have a tendency, I would say, to, be concerned about, well, what are people thinking about this? What are they thinking about this work that I did? What are they thinking about the way I'm presenting this? The reality over time that I've discovered that I am convinced is true is no one's thinking anything about those things. Everybody's busy. They got their own baggage and concerns, you know, and it's so easy to trap yourself into, these thought patterns of what we should be doing or what we can't do, or maybe I shouldn't get involved in playing that music thing because I want to be a painter and people need to just see me as a painter. It's all these crazy thoughts that we all wrestle with until you get to the point where you realize that no one's... no one's got the time or energy to be thinking about you and whatever you've got going on. And that's very liberating if you can get.

Once that kicks in, then you're just kind of off to the races because it's like, nothing can hold you back.

I wonder if you know how we were talking about a few minutes ago about that the exploring part maybe comes like, is like, is something to practice is simply the art of exploring or giving oneself permission to explore, right? Do you think you can get addicted to that without actually fault, like getting you know, finding something that you want to practice to kind of refine.

Oh, that's a good point. And yeah, and I've seen it with a lot of people. And I think that's one of the downsides of like, with so much information out there now, and you know, whether it's YouTube or, you know, how to things, it's easy to be a tourist and just kind of jump from thing to thing that you know, oh, that looks interesting. Maybe I'll try learning that. Oh, that looks interesting. Maybe I'll try to learn that. And not really spending the time to really get good at one particular thing or to really explore whether that's the thing for you and the thing that really is a way that you can express yourself with, that can be a dangerous trap in itself, I feel to have art be the way that I make my way through the world. I feel in some way, I guess as I'm thinking about it, what I was gonna say is that if I'm in the mode of like, I'm gonna explore and do all these things, I might be producing artwork that people like. I believe perhaps that's a way to make it happen. And there's also room for, you know, let me make... Let me make a bunch of these sculptures and finish that and then see. You know, is that making sense?

Yeah. I think, yeah, I think I get what you're saying. And it really just comes back to... I might just be reiterating what you just said. Yeah, I think it's just kind of going back over what we were just talking about. Yeah, it's a good one, especially the part about giving oneself permission too I think that's something really important to remember.

I think often we don't give ourselves permission to do things that might feel good to paint or might feel good to guild or it might feel good. All those things might be a good fit. I talk sometimes about the, you know, we're in this world of hustle culture, where some things are just important to do for the sake and process of doing that thing and not trying to turn this into a side hustle or a career or an Instagram feed or whatever. Just being creative for the sake of being creative and having fun with it. That's something our culture has really kind of gone back to. Not even backwards. It's because it's a new phenomenon. It's it's something we're really losing that needs to get corrected But do you think that in this context like we're we're talking about?

Perhaps somebody having art be their life in the way they provide for themselves and it becomes the art has a price tag on it because I have to pay my bills You know, how do you how do you stay out of like pursuing the money?

Well, yeah, there's the practical side. You have to keep a roof over your head and food on the table. But that's with the explorer thing. So for instance, let's say you're pursuing work as a sculptor or a painter or a filmmaker, whatever it is, and maybe that's how you're keeping the lights on. And then some friends call up and say, hey, do you want to start playing some music together? Your primary thing might need to be involved in generating the money, but that doesn't mean that if you decide to put together a little, you know, ensemble of people that are playing music and having fun doing that and all that, that that needs to turn into like a side hustle and all of that. And I think that's a part of our culture that has become unhealthy.

And you even see it in the area of like volunteerism and things. Like there's not a lot of people willing to just do things to better their community or to help their fellow man. They're looking to see what's the return. Like if I go spend this time, what do I get to get out of this instead of just simply looking at what they can give.

What would your words be to somebody who say is, you know, they do have creative genes and they have always wanted to be creative. And right now they're working in nine to five, Monday to Friday, that's like totally draining them, whatever that is. They're like punching a clock somewhere. And for them, that is like draining, but they need to do it. And they really still want to, they like to draw, like, and they've sort of put that on the back burner.

That's a really tough scenario. And, I've known a lot of people struggling with that scenario and it's really tough because if your work or living situation is such that you're just really, really drained by it, then jumping into the arena of being creative and having fun with it and all of that, that's a heavy lift. Yeah, I don't know that I have a direct.

You know, I've been fortunate in that, even though it's been to varying degrees because, you know, a lot of the work that I've done over the years that I've supported myself with has been commercial artwork with sign painting and gold leafing and that kind of thing. I've had the, you know, great situation where I'm getting paid to be creative. And so, yeah, I've never had... of like, you know, I'm working in the bank and I'm under fluorescent lights all day and I come home and I'm beat and I just don't really feel like... I think if that's the case, then a person really has to assess shifting up the paradigm somehow or at least putting something in motion. It might take a period of time, but putting something in motion to get into a situation that's less draining if they really want to pursue creative things.

You know what it reminds me of? That the thing in the, was it in the back of the comic books? The thing that you painted on the front of the counter here. That, you know, do you, do you remember that? Do you - be an artist. Yeah, like do you make, wasn't it, it was also a TV commercial maybe. And it was like the guy who's drawing the face on the stamp.

Oh yeah, you draw the little cartoon and then you turn it in and then they tell you whether you have a future in art or something.

Yeah, and it was like, is this you and the guy's drawing something on an envelope just because he had the envelope or whatever? And then it was like, call this number.

I'm pretty sure that was a scam of some kind. I don't know anything about it, but I'm pretty sure that was probably a scam.

Well, it kind of reminds me of that scenario. It's taking baby steps, even as tired as you are, maybe taking pen to paper or something, to sort of reignite that.

Yeah. Something that you love to do. That's the obvious advice, but I don't know how realistic that is. I think it's more like if you're in a job you hate, you probably want to take a look at switching that up in some form, in some way down the road. Yeah. Because until you get that off your back, you're probably not going to have the motivation to do the thing that you really feel like you really want to do.

Yeah, explore. Do not become attached to one single means of expression. Do not trap yourself.

Thanks for coming everybody. Thank you. See you next time.